Unintelligent Design

I'm fairly sure that the BNP/Loony vote isn't much more than the US 2004 vote for Nader. And UKIP aren't going to keep their place in the sun unless they stop squabbling with Kilroy-Slik about the leadership.

But I'd agree about the Conservative/Lib Dem problem - the former are currently on their way down, the latter (slowly) on their way up. But at the moment that means they're both awkwardly placed for elections, which is a shame.

From:

sarcaustik.livejournal.com

Yes. My answer was deliberately flippant hence including the BNP and the Loonies.

I suspect we're in for a Thatcher-esque run of President Tony, and unless something drastic happens to bring the Tories back into favour (which would be just as bad) or a fairer electoral system is introduced (never going to happen) then I imagine the Labour run of power could go on even longer.

From:

aoakley.livejournal.com

So what are you going to do about it?

I'll going flyering for the Conservatives. Admittedly, in Tewkesbury constituency this is like flyering for a coal delivery service in Newscastle, but still... the Tories are the only way we're going to get rid of Blair. Any means necessary, and all that.

From:

Not currently my choice of party - I'm not going to demonise them, I just disagree with some of their policies - but I'm all in favour of flyering and activism.

From:

aoakley.livejournal.com

Party politics aside, picking whichever party is most likely to beat Labour within one's consituency and volunteering to help them is pretty much the only active thing worth doing. Anything else is waffle.

From:

diffrentcolours

Depends on whether you think that getting rid of Blair is an end in itself. Frankly. I'd rather have Labour back in than the Tories. Even if I didn't live in a strong Lib Dem seat I'd be campaigning and voting for them.

From:

Yup. Tactical voting may not deliver an outright win, but it'll certainly slice the Labour majority...

Locally, the Conservatives have been slowly losing votes while the Lib Dems have been gaining 3-4% from the Labour vote at each of the last couple of elections, so they're now about level.

Which means I can vote Lib Dem without any real soul-searching about this, at least on this occasion. Having said that, our MP got 31000 votes last time and both Lib Dem and Conservative candidates got just under 10000, so I'm not exactly optimistic about the local result. :-/

From:

deeply-spurious.livejournal.com

hmmmm - given what you say above I'm not sure I understand your retticence to criticse the Tories, who in addition to doing at least as much as Blair has done to suck up to Bush, would also have done a great deal of other horrendous things...

That isn't intended as a defence of Blair, who I cannot abide... but before we all start joining together and thinking about notions of voting for anyone who isn't Blair, I suggest a closer examination of a) the Tories record and b) the Tories policies.

If it is the foreign policy issue which motivates your call to vote Blair out, then the Tories also surely have to be out of the question since their main action during the build up to the Gulf war was to egg the government on and to try to seem more pro-American than Blair was.

From:

diffrentcolours

I'm going to vote Lib Dem, and encourage others to do the same. Frankly, I'd rather have Blair than fucking Howard, and there's a good chance that a strong Lib Dem showing will put them in Opposition over the failed Tories. Which means that there will actually be opposition to Blair, as well as a reduced majority, as opposed to Labour being reinforced by the yes-men currently sitting opposite.

From:

tals.livejournal.com

Absolutely seconded!

And cheers for saving me some typing - that was exactly what I was going to say.

From:

deeply-spurious.livejournal.com

Yes - I think the best situation to be realistically hoped for at the next election is that Labour win with small majority and that the Lib Dems take significant numbers of seats both from them and from the Tories...

(actually, what would make me even happier still would be for there to be a hung parliament, which would result in a deal between Labour and the Lib Dems - but that is too risky since such a situation could only transpire if the Tories were to do extremely well)

From:

inulro.livejournal.com

Another "me too" comment here.

From:

smogo.livejournal.com

Thing is, of course, that you only get to vote for or against Blair if you live in Sedgefield. There are plenty of decent Labour MPs who deserve to be re-elected, but he's not one of them.

I've got a really difficult choice in my constituency (Brighton Pavilion). The sitting Labour MP is a Blairite cunt, and the only candidate who can beat him is the fucking Green Party candidate, who also happens to be a cunt. Ideally I'd vote Lib Dem, but I think my main priority has to be to help get rid of the Labour guy. But that would mean voting for (a) a hippie, and (b) a cunt. I don't know which way to vote. I think I'd probably rather see a Green Party cunt in parliament than a New Labour cunt, but only because Labour's majority needs to be cut.

From:

markeris.livejournal.com

Is the Green Party candidate who I think it is?

From:

smogo.livejournal.com

Ha! N-n-n-no! Can you imagine what the tabloids would dredge up about him if it was?

From:

deenial.livejournal.com

I have never voted Tory, and unless there's a dramatic shift in their, or my own, policies, I never will.
The difference between the US and here, is that it was unclear who would win that election. It's not the same thing here, Labour will win. And unless there's a pretty drastic change over the next few years, they'll win the next one too. There is no viable alternative. The Lib Dems are on the rise, but it's so slow it looks like it'll be a long time before they're in any position to become the opposition, let alone government itself, and Kennedy is, in my opinion, yet to be truly tested as to whether he'd be able to deal with the job.
We've got Labour, and we've got Blair for the next term.

I don't necessarily agree with the notion that if you don't vote, you haven't got cause to complain. When you vote, you display your support for a candidate, you effectively give them your voice, they become your representative, for better or for worse, whether you continue to agree with them or not. If you don't vote, you've not given any one that power, your voice is still your own. Admittedly there's not a lot you can do with it. I guess it depends on exactly what you say. If you say something along the lines of "The Tories would have done a better job" but you didn't vote for them, then yeah, shut up! But if it's merely "Well this sucks", you have that right! It's not constructive, but that's another matter.

From:

deeply-spurious.livejournal.com

in relation to what you say about not voting, I think a distinction has to be drawn between not going to vote on the one hand, and turning up to vote and spoiling your ballot paper on the other. Staying away usually reflects a mixture of apathy, ignorance and laziness - if the reason is not one of these things then people should make this clear by bothering to take part and making a statement to the effect that the candidates all suck.

But I still thing people should be pragmatic and vote tactically.

From:

deenial.livejournal.com

A fair point well made

From:

lsur.livejournal.com

Voting Labour will not necessarily mean another full term for Blair. It seems clear that Brown is after Blair's job and has the support he needs to take it. If Labour get in again it would likely be the end of Blair. Whether that's the end of his policies is another matter. We don't seem to be in a position just to walk out of Iraq, having made such a mess there.

From:

No, voting Labour doesn't automatically mean voting Blair. But the larger his majority the longer he'll be tempted to cling on before handing over, IMO.

Interesting piece about it from the BBC, here

From:

lsur.livejournal.com

I remeber being so pleased that Blair was elected. Not just because of the demise of the Tories but he seemed a good bloke. How wrong can you be!? So, if Brown takes over, will things be any better? There are all politicians, after all.

From: (Anonymous)

Brown may have been extremely cunning - because of the widely publicised rifts between him and Blair (Which Brown has always refused to confirm - or deny), He potentially has the room to turn round once Blair has gone and claim he (Brown) backed a Number of Polices (against his better Judgement) on the Basis of Party Unity / Blair Misleading him and ditch some policies (though which ones he might is anyones guess) - gaining him some popularity at Blairs expense (remember he won't want to take over midterm and then lose the following election - he's waited long enough he'll want at least one full term as PM).

From:

Yeah, but with all the dislike of Blair, we have to remember what things used to be like: high inflation, high unemployment, governments that called same-sex couples 'pretend families', attempts to introduce a poll tax, tea with Pinochet...

I think anyone who says that all politicians are alike has a short memory. I can't imagine a Tory government encouraging devolution, introducing same-sex partnership equality, banning fox hunting, and at least showing some enthusiasm for Europe.

From:

I think anyone who says that all politicians are alike...

indicates how little they know about politics. Politicians are all scum; they're simply not the same scum.

From:

Unfortunately, There Is No (Credible) Alternative.

From:

I have to agree. I would like the Lib Dems to get in, but until they become the opposition, I would vote actively for Labour to prevent any chance of the Tories returning to power. I think that trying to deliberately arrange for a lower majority for Labour is potentially dangerous: after all, the Tories have supported all the worst policies of Labour - the thought of Howard at No 10 is truly awful.

From:

Indeed. It concerns me that many people are too young to remember, and would probably refuse to credit, how things were under Thatcher; it really makes me want to shake roughly anyone of their age who says "anyone but Labour".

I'll consider voting Liberal Democrat when they have some policies to discuss. Until then — TIN(C)A.

From:

Oh, I remember. I just refuse to believe that this is the best we get. We should put up with all the stupid things he's done, just because he's the lesser evil?

Bollocks to that. How are those things going to get fixed if we don't make any noise about them?

A lot of things are, indeed, much better. But we still have plans for ID cards, we have a war we didn't want - and, arguably, didn't need - sold to us on a mix of lies and ever-changing motives, we have imprisonment without trial in Belmarsh (and the government doing all they can to ignore judgements saying it's not legal..).

Meanwhile, Thatcher's legacy is about as relevant and healthy as she is - except for the "law and order" aspects of it which Labour have quietly usurped. Most of those battles are, slowly, being won. That may change, but it's unlikely to be suddenly reversed.

I'm certainly not saying "anyone but Labour" - if I was, I wouldn't have joined the Lib Dems. What I am saying is that Labour is quietly sinking into the mire and needs a good kick. I'd like a Lib Dem government or, failing that, a left-wing Labour government that actually remembers what they used to stand for...

From:

When you've finished shooting down the argument that I didn't make...

I'd like a Lib Dem government or, failing that, a left-wing Labour government that actually remembers what they used to stand for...

And while we're wishing for that, I'd like a small box of crystallised fruits. At least that's currently feasible.

From:

*sigh* Well, yes. But then I didn't say "anyone but Labour" either, did I?

I can understand why

zarbi said "I would like the Lib Dems to get in, but until they become the opposition, I would vote actively for Labour to prevent any chance of the Tories returning to power", and why you agreed... but if nobody votes for the Lib Dems until they become the official opposition, just how will they become the official opposition?

Maybe I'm not seeing this clearly, but I don't see any real risk of a Conservative government in the next election. They're still something of a shambles, and Howard's failed to rebuild their credibility.

I simply don't believe that, given that situation, a Conservative win is really any more likely than a Lib Dem win. So why worry so much about the former but dismiss the latter?

From:

No, you didn't, and as far as I can tell I didn't say that you had; which is what rather perplexed me in your response.

The answer to your question is, at least to me, transparently simple: we've had Tory governments; we know what they did, and no doubt are still entirely capable of doing. Howard's been Thatcher's buddy for years and years, remember. That's more than enough good reason not to want them in power ever again. However, I don't believe in the political awareness of the electorate sufficiently to trust them not to elect them again, I'm afraid.

Why won't people vote Lib Dem? Two reasons. The first is that those of us who remember who they were beforehand know that they consist of 1) a handful of perennially unelectable Liberals and 2) preBlairite splitters who ran away from the Labour party to become the SDP because they didn't like the taste of Socialism. People have long memories, and I suspect that it'll take the passing of a generation before many people will forgive them their origins. The second is that in a Catch-22 kind of setup, they haven't been elected, so nobody knows what they'd be like if they were elected, and therefore nobody trusts them enough to elect them. Anyone who claims that a party's behaviour in office must in any way resemble their manifesto will be met with a short laugh from me.

So what choice do we have?

1) Tories. Never, never again.
2) Lib Dems. Unproven and I think currently unprovable. I have a nasty suspicion they'd sell themselves to anyone for a lick of power, but that's politicians for you.
3) Labour. The least worst of a bad, bad bunch. We've got some good out of them, at least.
4) The Rest. Not an issue unless you don't live in England.

I'm sorry, but I can't see a more optimistic outlook than that.

From:

we've had Tory governments; we know what they did, and no doubt are still entirely capable of doing. Howard's been Thatcher's buddy for years and years, remember. That's more than enough good reason not to want them in power ever again. However, I don't believe in the political awareness of the electorate sufficiently to trust them not to elect them again, I'm afraid.

Perfectly expressed. My view exactly. Nearly 1/3 of the electorate still want a Tory government. That scares me.

From:

Why won't people vote Lib Dem? Two reasons. The first is that those of us who remember who they were beforehand know that they consist of 1) a handful of perennially unelectable Liberals and 2) preBlairite splitters who ran away from the Labour party to become the SDP because they didn't like the taste of Socialism. People have long memories, and I suspect that it'll take the passing of a generation before many people will forgive them their origins.

Fair comment. But I think that shift is already happening, and quite rapidly - all those who don't remember life under Thatcher don't really know who the Lib Dems were in those days, either.

It's now been 24 years since the SDP formed, 17 years since they became the Liberal Democrats... and putting memory aside for a second, how many of their current MPs actually come from those preBlairite splitters or unelectable Liberals?

From:

all those who don't remember life under Thatcher don't really know who the Lib Dems were in those days, either.

True enough. It's a long time since I've been able to wear my "Join the Liberals or we'll shoot your dog" badge and expect to get a laugh out of it.

Why is it that one's not allowed to drive a car, a quite dangerous object, until one's satisfied examiners that one's not likely to be a public menace with it, whereas merely by turning eighteen one's allowed to use a vote, which should by rights be an even more dangerous object, without having to be able to do more than pick up a pencil?

Sod cricket tests, I want a political competence test. I really don't trust the competence of my fellow voters.

how many of their current MPs actually come from those preBlairite splitters or unelectable Liberals?

Precious few, I should think;

softfruit could almost certainly tell you. Is it really 24 years, though? I remember it all so well... trails off into senile ramblings about Asquith and Lloyd George

From:

Oh, I remember. I just refuse to believe that this is the best we get. We should put up with all the stupid things he's done, just because he's the lesser evil?

Bollocks to that. How are those things going to get fixed if we don't make any noise about them?

I have a huge amount of sympathy with this point of view! But I guess I just don't consider it the lesser 'evil'. I think devolution, an (eventual) hunting ban, a minimum wage, equality of age of consent, adoption of human rights into UK law, same-sex partnership rights, improved maternity pay and rights, and many other things are positively good things that we would never have had under the Tories. This government has done some bad things - I shall never understand their bizarre willingness to go along with Bush, but to say they are the lesser evil, is, I think, to neglect a huge amount of good that has been done.

Meanwhile, Thatcher's legacy is about as relevant and healthy as she is - except for the "law and order" aspects of it which Labour have quietly usurped.

I guess because I lived through it, I'm not so certain: after all, Howard was a Thatcherite! I believe there is a still a huge festering pool of xenophobia, anti-feminism and homophobia in the Tory party.

Perhaps in 5-10 years, when the Tories have finally either changed beyond recognition or become the third party, I might want to risk a gamble of removing Labour.

Anyway, just my view. I have a lot of respect for yours.

From:

dmh.livejournal.com

Hmm. Perhaps you should form a new party?

From:

The Benevolent Dictatorship of the Wombat?

Hm. I wouldn't vote for me.

From:

dmh.livejournal.com

The theory goes along the lines that anyone who actually wants to be a politician should under no circumstances be allowed to be one. I think you'd be an excellent choice. ;o)

From: