(no subject)

[mrph]

...a couple more UK names for the Leipzig WGT, it seems. Knifeladder and a return appearance for Naevus.

Looking forward to seeing Naevus again. Hopefully they won't be on outdoors in blazing sunshine this time...

Comments

[mrph.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I think it depends an awful lot on genre - if a band is edging towards neofolk or deathrock the organisers seem much less fussed about whether they've got a major label behind them...

In the case of Naevus, I suspect their first appearance went well enough to justify a return, too - once you've got a foot in the door, assuming it goes ok, you're no longer an unknown quantity and it seemingly gets much easier to get back again.

Also, Naevus have done some gigging in Germany/Portugal/Italy already, and now seem to be working on collaborations and split releases with people like Spiritual Front and Kirlian Camera - who do already have a reputation in those circles...

[markeris.livejournal.com]

To put it more succinctly, as far as I can make out theres bloke A who you speak to if you want to play and are a neofolk or related band and bloke B who you speak to if you are not a neofolk band.

It would seem that your chances of being considered as a neofolk or related band are somewhat higher than anyone elses as a result through a process of primary school maths.

[markeris.livejournal.com]

NB this is not a whinge or any sort of suggestion that there is anything not fair about this. It`s simply an observation on the mix of music the promoters would seem to be interested in.

[markeris.livejournal.com]

Possibly. Although your argument above needs tohave a swift introduction to the concepts of some, few and all.

[markeris.livejournal.com]

I can see where your idea came from. It`s currently very popular to assume that all Neofolk bands are far right, and as yet no one seems to find an issue with the fact that this is like saying that all folk bands sing about the Irish potatoe famine. Or indeed that all goth bands sing about vampires.

[dave-exile.livejournal.com]

I think one needs to be quite careful with making assumptions about this sort of stuff.

a - There's a difference between exploring a concept and promoting an ideology - I'm sure the practicalities of murder and blood-drinking aren't particularly pleasant but there are plenty of goth bands who sing about vampires, and other "unpleasant" things, many of them real rather than fantasy.

b - Nazi imagery has been also been used to a degree by UK bands, and very popular ones; many punks (including Siouxsie) used to wear swastikas[1], and where do you think Joy Division's name comes from?

c (related to point a) - I seem to remember someone far more knowledgeable about neofolk than I telling me that Douglas P of Death In June actually wrote an anti-Nazi campaign work. Whether or not this is true, I wouldn't know. I did find this, though, which is interesting - if they are using symbols appropriated by the Nazis for their the band's (rather than the Nazis') purposes, this is a parallel with goth culture using crucifixes etc. in a "subversive" way. Of course, whatever the reason of the artist, there are always going to be people who are too stupid or too focussed on their own agenda to pick up on it; look at the banning of Killing An Arab, and the National Front and Anti Nazi League turning up at Cure gigs, because they'd completely misunderstood the song.

d - Given the recent progress of the BNP in the UK, I think it's a little dangerous to view far-right politics as pretty much something that happens in Germany and Austria.

[1] - Ok, so swastikas have a meaning that pre-dates Nazism by a long way - but I don't think the reason these bands used swastikas had anything to do with that meaning, I think it was purely for shock value. One could argue that neofolk bands using similar imagery could also be using (perhaps more sophisticated) shock tactics.

FWIW, I think the reason that a (seemingly, to many UK people) disproportionate amount of neofolk, neoclassical etc. bands play at Leipzig is simple - that stuff is BIG "over there". A few years ago I DJed in Amsterdam alongside a neofolk DJ, and I was absolutely amazed by how popular his sets, most of the tracks in which I had never heard, were. I'd say neofolk is much more popular in some parts of Europe than post-Sisters goth-rock - the UK is something of an anomaly there - maybe partly because most of the bigger goth-rock bands are/were British, and most of the neofolk/neoclassical ones aren't?

I think the UK was such a major part (some would say the centre) of the goth-and-related scene for so long, that many UK people seem to find it really hard to grasp that these days it's really fairly insignificant other than in a historical sense. Personally I don't think the UK representation at Leipzig is unduly small, and I can see that many of the more popular/successful bands in the UK scene might struggle badly at Leipzig; in fact, I've seen it happen.

[markeris.livejournal.com]

To argue against myself here (and I think it`s pretty clear where I stand from brief comments that echo yours) - there remains a reasonably major issue that Death in June (work out where the name comes from as a starting point in this argument), arguably the founders, certainly the Major Players of Neofolk are up against this all the time. And rarely, if ever to my knowledge, use this position despite it being an obvious and regular interview question, to dissacoiate themselves from the accusations. Again - this is DIJ. Few. Not some. Not all. And it would of course be ludicrous to suggest that, for instance, All Living Fear would be responsible for something Andy Eldritch said. But DIJ as the laymans view of Neofolk do skirt the issue somewhat. None of which has stopped me crying to their more poignant albums. And none of which suggests that they are as accused - it`s equally realistic to assume they take an "Oh, for fucks sake attitude".

But there we are.

The most telling moment, and certainly the point at which the scene DOES distance itself from things, is when Patrick O`Kill, ex DIJ in the rather comprehensive sleeve notes for the Six COmm / Mother Destruction best of (name escapes me) specifically references his past and boldy says. Look. Yes. I did find a lot of things that attracted me in Nazi chic and philosophy at the time. Look. I was young. I was a bit of a wanker really. I`m sorry.

To deny it`s there would be wrong. But it`s possibly a small part. And a part that those responsible may have left behind.

I`m sure Souxsie herself is a bit embarrased by it in the cold light of day, even though we all understand her reasons.

I may be more sympathetic than most to misinterpretation because I for one have had too many "Nietzche was top and not a Nazi" conversations in my life.

Still. What do I know?

(basically, we need a who is nazi fuck ometer here. And we whittle out the few bad eggs and let Neofolk get back about its business. But as Morph has said, the WGT crowd don`t seem shy about fulfilling this role!)

[mrph.livejournal.com]

...that doesn't mean the WGT crowd is the ideal solution, of course. Organisations like Grufties gegen Rechts seem a little too happy to use the blunt object solution - and (allegedly) don't always check their facts before deciding just who deserves it...

But we do need a Nazi fuck ometer, yes. If only as an antidote to flyers like the ones circulating at the last InFest, with their vague claims about "rightist" bands. And to people like the idiot who posted on upg claiming that bands like VNV Nation and Synthetic fall into that category because of their dress sense... for those outside the neo-folk scene, it's very hard to tell just how much truth there is to the rumours.

[mrph.livejournal.com]

...well, ok, apart from the Synthetic and VNV claims, which are blatantly bollocks. If only because most goths know a bit about those bands and can draw their own conclusions.

[dave-exile.livejournal.com]

Yep, I'd agree with pretty much all of that. Again, though, I'd point out that Joy Division's name has an origin hardly less sinister than that of DIJ, and I'd repeat that I think there's a difference between describing something and promoting it (or do we blame blood-drinking teenagers on Nosferatu or even Bram Stoker, and serial killers on Nick Cave?).

At the end of the day, I don't know the truth about the motives of DIJ etc. If I encounter a track that I feel is actively promoting something I disagree with, I won't play it.

I suppose I just wanted to make the point that I don't think it's reasonable to dismiss the popularity of neofolk and similiar genres at Leipzig as being down to the fact that Germany has had, and still has to a degree, a problem with the far right (especially as the UK has a growing problem in that area itself). Neofolk is certainly popular amongst many people who are very far from being Nazis - as evidenced by Morph's anecdote.

[mrph.livejournal.com]

The last time the far right put in an noticeable appearance was when half a dozen of them, allegedly in full military uniforms, turned up to see one of the bands in 2002(?), Darkwood. Some members of the crowd decided to beat the shit out of them.

You're far more likely to see the swastika-in-bin "keep your country tidy" T-shirts at most German festivals, in my experience.

A few neo-folk bands may have dubious political leanings, but an awful lot don't...

[markeris.livejournal.com]

Lets also remember that your average NeoNazi isn`t the most subtle of creatures. It was not unusual for them to turn up in Britain to see bands like The Specials, because of skinhead connotations and whatnot, missing the fact completely that ignoring the ethnic makeup of the bands they were playing songs like COncrete Jungle and specifically shouting at them from the stage to f**k off.

But then your average Nazi skinhead tends not to have the faintest clue that skinhead culture stems from Jamaican rudeboys in the first place.

[mrph.livejournal.com]

I think possibly there's less competition, purely in "# of bands competing for # of slots" terms. And less emphasis on labels, yep. So your chances are better.

Perhaps it just boils down to Bloke A, their neofolk expert, being a bit more willing to take chances on 'new' bands than Bloke B?