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mrphToday's question: Is the UK goth scene broken? And, if so, just what changes d'you think would be needed to fix it?
Yes, I know this is a can of worms. But I'm curious to see what people think. This is mostly sparked by Uncle Nem's excellent Leipzig piece and the LJ comments it triggered.
(Now that you've lured him to Leipzig, can we drag him to M'era Luna next year,![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
chimera_s? I'd quite like to see a similar write-up on that, a very different kind of German festival...).
Yes, I know this is a can of worms. But I'm curious to see what people think. This is mostly sparked by Uncle Nem's excellent Leipzig piece and the LJ comments it triggered.
(Now that you've lured him to Leipzig, can we drag him to M'era Luna next year,
chimera_s? I'd quite like to see a similar write-up on that, a very different kind of German festival...).
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Kidnapping ????
Date: 2003-08-02 10:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-02 11:07 am (UTC)a fecking miracle...
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Date: 2003-08-02 11:13 am (UTC)I think the UK goth scene needs something, quite what I am not sure. To be honest I'm a bit bored with the whole thing. Money has been one of the major reasons for not coming out, but then so has the rise in bleepy crap. Besides, I prefer to run around a small field, hide behind inflatables and inflict pain on other people at weekends - much more satisfyingway to waste money.
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Date: 2003-08-04 12:02 am (UTC)I suspect the German market is bouyant simply because they GET the idea of a wider alternative spectrum in which a range of tastes is desirable and acceptable - both across the market and within the individual.
To summarise - the UK market is fucked partially as a result of the amount of people with the hump about "bleepy crap" etc. Or, more precisely, the amount of people who have bought into the idea that "crap" is a function of genre rather than the actual qualities of a specific piece of music. A scene largely based around the idea that ALL music fitting my narrow minded view of (insert steroetype genre) is crap, whilst wilfully hoovering up the most remarkable amount of derivative underproduced shite, with no real reason to exist beyond a pub band and certainly no danger of impacting upon the wider international market, simply because it fits their view of "what the type of music I allow myself to listen to" is quite damaging really. This certainly isn`t the climate that allowed the "goth" scene successes of the late 80s to prevail, why should we delude ourselves it is now?
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Date: 2003-08-04 12:03 am (UTC)hit the nail on the head
Date: 2003-08-06 09:04 am (UTC)simply because it fits their view of "what the type of music I allow myself to listen to" is quite damaging really."
bleepy crap = pop music...didn't you know that?
*rolls her eyes*
i totally agree with what you've said here...i'm proud of my let's say ecclectic musical tastes and have often been at the end of a wagged finger for having "crappy"/non-goth (hello?) tastes in music...
if people did less pigeonholing with regards to styles and more listening to the amazing range of bands that's on offer out there, i think it would give gig numbers a boost
also, in response to posts further down this thread, i feel that the net has also played a part here also. mp3s and music ripping aside, a lot of people use the internet as their primary source of communication, gone are the days when you'd meet your friends at a gig to have a chat and catch up...sad but true
secxx
(just wandering through, sorry, please resume *smiles*)
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Date: 2003-08-02 11:26 am (UTC)I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer, as I haven't really left the house in ages and am usually too tired (plus it's too frustrating) to keep up with things on the .net.
From what I read, the club scene is doing OK (I'm actually going to one tonight, I'll let y'all know how it was later), it's the gig scene that seems to be lacking.
Unfortunately decent bands cost money to put on, so unless UK goths get a lot more excited about live bands, I'm not sure there's a way to fix it.
Says the person who has been too busy to make it to London or Birmingham or anywhere for gigs in longer than I care to remember.
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Date: 2003-08-02 05:19 pm (UTC)I think it might help if the bands who are playing London regularly were to play less frequently but over a greater geographical area. I suspect the problem is that bands and promoters alike have run out of cash to keep the gig scene going, since the punters won't support it any more.
I'm not sure what the solution is. People just can't be arsed with gigs, so their only exposure to music is at clubs, hence "club music" (i.e. bleepy shit) sells CD and "gig music" doesn't (yeah, I know it's not as black and white as that, but the point stands). What we need is something to make people get off their arses, something to make people care about live music. What that might be, I don't know.
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Date: 2003-08-04 08:10 am (UTC)AS I`m giving mine and quite a few other people tuppence worth on this thread.....
This attitude, and I`m almost certainly taking it the wrong way so I apologise in advance, is also a symptom of the problem. Decent bands *can* in fact cost fuck all to put on, EXPENSIVE bands cost money to put on and it worries me that people rather regularly substitute the two as though they are interchangable.
When I was a promoter, I reached a point where I consciously inflated prices over and above my general policy of keeping it cheap for the kids, largely NOT because I could do with making a few extra quid, but because if it was too cheap, people assumed it would be crap. I could get more people coming at a fiver than I could if the same gig was free. How fucked is that? Maybe Franks more asture than we think.
A different take on the same problem, and the reason I finally gave up promoting, was because I got sick and fucking tired of sneering teenagers with New Rocks, Black Leather Trenchcoats and NiN T Shirts pointedly ripping my flyers up in front of me. Oh. Nice one. So, in fact, the target audience I perceived for my efforts in flying bands in from the US and Europe plus the best up and coming UK acts, does in fact think I`m a joke does it? Well fuck you then. If 25% of these cunts coming out of the Gloucester in Ministry and NiN T shirts had come along I`d have more than broken even every time. At the time, I kind of figured it as a "well, if my parents haven``t heard about the band, they won`t be annoyed if I go, so the idea of seeing tommorows NiN playing a lowkey gig isn`t really of interest" attitude. Perhaps I was wrong. Perhaps people do genuinely believe these days that unless it`s an enormogig with an MTV rotated act then there is something deficient about the quality. That DECENT bands DO in fact cost money. If this is so, then theres a major difference from the postpunk days in which this genre thrived *right there*. None of the big names, and you can include the Sisters, The Cure, The Mission, *whoever* would have gone beyond upstairs at the garage if people hadn`t gone to see them in pokey sweaty basements and fucking LOVED it, if they hadn`t kipped on the station waiting for the first train home in the morning. I rather suspect that they were a damn site worse for quite a few years than some of the cheap and nasty UK bands we have now as well.
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Date: 2003-08-04 09:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-03 02:13 am (UTC)it just strikes me that the UK goth scene is caving in on itself.
i agree with the comment aout the live scene -and particular in London- and obviously from first hand experience.
i think what the scene needs is a bit more open-mindedness on the whole- and this is talking about *the scene*, not necessarily individuals within it.
the more the scene panders to the same old bands, the same old attire, the same old attitudes, etc etc, NOTHING WILL CHANGE. simple. the longer the scene refuses to evolve, the more it will continue to cave in on itself.
i'm hardly a pro-goth activist, infact i'm not a fucking goth at all. however i have a lot of friends who are. my main observation is that the scene seems to be becoming increasingly redundant- the fact that flag insist on choking the life out of the london live scene just makes people sick and apathetic. like you said to me last weekend Morph- outside London people haven't seen bands for so long they've *forgotten what to do* when bands DO come to town. clubs like slimelight are monotonous- same playlists every week for months-years- full tilt has gone a bit commercial of late but then maybe that could be its saving grace- they're obviously well aware numbers were down so they had to branch out to keep the place afloat.
i'm in a weird position- a non-goth band on a non-goth label which nontheless relies heavily on the goth scene, while playing nothing but goth gigs- i AM amazed how well we actually go down with the goth crowd. i guess even on a superficial level, in that we don't stride onstage wearing transmuters, pvc catsuits, etc. last gig our guitarist just wore jeans and trainers.
obviously we had the dev fiasco whereby we weren't let in for not looking right- the elitist attitude that seems to be the goth scenes own worst enemy. how therefore can ELR and bands like us fit in?
i suppose what the goth scene needs is to go for a complete makeover- even drop the 'goth' tag. i know that outside the goth scene just the name 'goth' makes it a laughing stock- so how can the scene possibly attract the necessary crossover audience it needs to keep its clubs open and the gigs worthwhile?
one thing we're worried about in ELR is not getting too heavily associated with the goth scene- we're scared that being considered on 'the outside' as a 'goth band' will impair our chances of getting further and bigger and appeal to a wider audience. AND WHY IS THIS? this must say SOMETHING. and this is the danger of being constantly billed will people like Lupine and The Scary Bitches, 616 Abortions etc.
flag/frank needs to branch out if his gigs are going to survive and bring in more crossover bands, even just to broaden the audiences horizons. because at this rate there won't be an audience left to play to in the very near future... :/
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Date: 2003-08-12 02:53 pm (UTC)that's not true. Agreed, some songs get played a lot there, but there is also new material/bands coming through all the time as well. I think you also have to take into account what the people going to clubs tend to request week in week out too, and their attitude to new music... which leads us back to the "not going to see small bands" side of things...
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Date: 2003-08-03 02:45 am (UTC)...one word, "Deathrock" ; )
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Date: 2003-08-03 01:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-03 02:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-03 03:35 pm (UTC)I suspect part of the problem is that while Deathrock bands do tend to put on impressive live shows, which is one of the things fuelling the US scene, they don't tend to play the UK. Well, not aside from Antiworld in Leeds and (arguably) Last Days of Jesus - and while they're both damn good bands, they've not conquered London or gained popular recognition here yet.
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Date: 2003-08-04 01:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-04 04:51 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-04 05:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-04 12:13 am (UTC)It`s a great tool for levelling the playing fields, allowing the DIY Punk aesthetic to come forth and allow bootstrapped bands and labels slightly increased access to the channels previusly reserved to the big boys. The real charm of the UK Goth scene right now is the whole DIYness of it all. The real danger is the ceiling you reach quickly - where *do* you go after playing Gotham and Whitby? Erm...into the wider world where a lot of hard work can yield nothing.
*BUT* - I think the thing that held the goth scene together was a need for belonging, a need for similar minds . In ye olde days this would involve pub meets, regular club attendance and getting excited about gigs. For social reasons as much as the lure of the music. These days participation in a LJ forum about "why is goth so doomed in the UK?" can fulfill the same need, hence the gig audiences are down etc., because no one actually gives a fuck. Look at the number of members there are on NetGoth. In a good week (or a bad week by industry standards) if everyone who was a member went out and bought a single by the same UK band, it would hit No.1 in the charts (assuming of course that the retail points used were scanned for this - a major problem resulting from the DIY ethic). Even if only 1/4 of the people did it, theres a good chance of going top 40. So why isn`t this happening?
I suggest it`s because whilst people enjoy debates such as this, they don`t actually give a fuck, and when they do support the scene, it`s` largely based around them spending offensive amounts on clothing so they can look cool.
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Date: 2003-08-04 08:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-05 12:42 am (UTC)Deathboys an interesting experiment - he`s got around 10 albums worth of mp3s up before officialy releasing *anything* and this had made a pretty good fanbase. Now theres a commercial "everything done one louder with good production" release by Deathboy the band. If sales of that don`t pan out compared to the fanbase for the .mp3 stuff we`ll have a pretty good gauge of exactly what mr. punter wants. Sadly if they don`t want slicker, nicer looking, commercial stuff, and indeed to respond directly to an obvious and honorable "look pay me for the stuff I really really work hard on and have the rest that I knock out becasue I just can`t stop creating as a freebie" stance.
I know you`ve mentioned about "bandwidth" before, but its really not that hard or expensive to have .mp3s hosted somewhere - indeed the market model is moving slowly towards it being possible to make a small profit out of this - and I think you should bite the bullet here and just go ahead with the idea that whilst not for DJs / Media purposes, but for the rest of the marketplace, the .mp3 is the replacement for the demotape and in this sense it`s a bloody wonderful thing. It`s unfortunate that some see it as a replacement for the finished album too. My stance on this for WF stuff is :-
Donwload the .mp3 and think it`s shit? OK. delete it, don`t buy the album and go and find something good. Our bad.
Download the .mp3 and think it`s average? Our bad again. delete it. Lifes too short for mediocrity.
Download the .mp3 and like it? Go and buy it you swine. Or keep it and send us a cheque for a few quid to cover royalties or something. If the music actually works for you, you must understand that we need this money to keep giving you stuff like this.
Try before you buy wil almost certainly decrease sales to an extent. I`m comfortable with this - we only actually deserve money if people think it`s as shit hot as I do. Hopefully .mp3s as "singles" from the album will ultimately increase the amount of people exposed and thus the amount of people who will actually like and thus buy it. If this doesn`t happen of course, people will find the amount of stuff "they like" available to them decrease quite a lot over the next few years......
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Date: 2003-08-05 09:45 am (UTC)Firstly, I should say that I don't routinely download mp3s from Kazaa or whatever. I prefer CDs, for a whole host of reasons (including a certain snobbishness about sound quality, pretty inlays etc).
But... I do go hunting for mp3s (preferably, but not always, official ones) before festivals and the like, when I want some idea of what a band sounds like - to help me decide whether to go, to help me decide who to see (especially at things like Leipzig, where there are so many options but no info about each band on the festival site....) or just so that I know a few of the songs before I go see them. I'm not the only person who does this, either.
As a promotional tool, I do think they have their uses.
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Date: 2003-08-16 04:13 am (UTC)no guitars though! :)