(no subject)

[mrph]

From the BBC Iraq news, here.

Peter Hunt :: Doha, Qatar :: 2130GMT

This afternoon, a vehicle, possibly a van, approached a military checkpoint near Najaf.

Soldiers from the 3rd Infantry Division signalled for to stop. It didn't. They fired warning shots and then fired into the engine.

The vehicle continued moving towards them. As a last resort, according to a Central Command spokesman, they fired into the passenger compartment.

There were 13 women and children inside. Seven of them were dead.

I just don't have the words to respond to this.

Comments

[lougarry.livejournal.com]

Sad but understandable (if that is what happened). I guess they did everything they could to try to stop it, and at the end of the day them or the van. I guess you have be in that situation to understand the self-preservation thing...remember that only a couple days ago 4 americans were killed in similar circumstances. Their Moral has taken a huge hit because this isn't the walk-over they were expecting (thanks to certain governments) and they have been fighting for a long time now, which I guess compared to some of the poor bastards fighting WW2 is nothing, but still, it is a long time for any one under those circumstances. Supplies are a bit low because they are struggling to get the convoys through. It looks fairly unorganised...and as per usual the troops suffer.
It sounds like they are very jumpy atm...understandably :(

[lougarry.livejournal.com]

have read the report now, and it does sound like they are very jumpy. Not sure what to believe with
the US I'm afraid, but many of these kids/men will have been brought up under the spectre of Vitnam and they know what a mess that was. In a way, this is similar - with regards to the irregulars. They'r not fighting a standard war anymore, there are military units in civilians clothes, civilian militia etc, and inturn they dont know who is friend or who is foe, and if the story that the van didn't stop is to believed, then I can totally understand where they are coming from.
I am not condoning their actions, I can just understand why they did it.
Very sad for all involved.

[lougarry.livejournal.com]

yup, it is war after all - regardless of how we got there in the first place. there are people in civilian gear who want to kill our military boys and girls.
I imagine that is the way the majority of people would have reacted if they were in the same circumstances, I know I would have. If the report is to be believed the van was given ample warning. If you dont stop after bullets are fired into the engine of the car you are driving...well...

War aside, even in our paintball games we encourage surrender...if you have a gun-barrel in the back and you dont surrender, then you get what is coming to you I'm afraid...it is the way of things.

[mrph.livejournal.com]

From one point of view, I'd agree. But the embedded reporter who witnessed this reports a furious commander yelling at the troops "you killed a [expletive] family because you didn't fire a warning shot soon enough"... so maybe it's not quite that clear cut.

And did anyone hail them in a language they understood? One of the recurring statements I hear about the US army is that they have hardly anyone who speaks Arabic...

It's a fuck-up, and in the short term it's only going to get worse.

[mrph.livejournal.com]

Well, the embedded reporters were the Pentagon's own idea.

And, bottom line... bottom line there didn't have to be a war at this point in time, and there didn't have to be checkpoints. Simple as that.

[mrph.livejournal.com]

Well, yes. To some extent. But still.. as you say, it's a democracy. For me, that means holding the government to account now. History will indeed judge. But the government should, here and now, be able to justify their course of action to the people and the parliament.

We wouldn't (and don't) accept "trust us, we know what we're doing" as an excuse on transport policy, taxation or healthcare. Yes, some things have to be withheld for security reasons, but that can't be a blank cheque. The specialists still have to persuade the laymen that they're right.

Perhaps they have - support was above 50% for the first time when the troops went in. But I've read a lot about this, including the text of Resolution 1441. And I still think Blair's interpretation is... questionable.. at best.

Still, we're there now. I don't think we can back out, and the best we can do is do the job, help rebuild, get the army out swiftly and leave the place better than we found it. Without American corporations running the show...

[Interesting sidenote: today I discovered that VP Dick Cheney's old company, Haliburton, has the contract for the Guantanamo Bay prison camp. They kept that quiet...]

[feanelwa.livejournal.com]

fwiw the soldiers are now letting people through whether they stop or not apparently, so that they don't do that again.

[lougarry.livejournal.com]

Great :( Now any one can get through and back doo the troops. Just what the hell is a security check point for, and if they're not going to check things, then why bother having it in the first place.
Bloody americans.

[mrph.livejournal.com]

Fair point. They're rattled, on a military level and on a political level too - I don't see a clear strategy here, just a desire to cut the PR blunders...

[lougarry.livejournal.com]

Trouble is, it doesn't take a lot in the line of casualties for troop moral to take nose dive.
With the amount of us troops KIA - and mostly in stupid things like suicide bombings, they're not feeling so hot, not to mention they've probably exhausted by now. This kind of thing makes occurances like the chap rolling grenades under tents all too common.
I can honestly understand the poor buggers opening up on a van that wasn't stopping - ion war it's a kind of 'them or us' attitude...if you have seen Full Metal Jackt you'll know what I mean, it really does illustrate the point pretty well. Also, look at the the guerrilla tactics used by the VC during Nam. A lot of women were fighters, not necessarily having to take up arms, but they would secure jobs in base camps and then pass on the info to the VC outside the compounds...very effective...
And this is kind of what is happening over there, we dont know who is friend or foe anymore, because of all the regs and irregs being in uniform.

The other problem we have is that the Coalition side is so desparate to show that they are friendly and have intentions to liberate that they are now risking the lives of the troops (certainly the english ones) by getting them to wear the berets instead of hard helmets...apparently berets are friendlier looking than the helmets...anyone remember why we wear helmets in a war zone...?!?!

Propaganda is such a god-awful tool.

[shryke.livejournal.com]

this is part of the iraqi plan. when they startedfighting in civilian clothes, and suicide bombing the made the civilian populace targets. as americans we're expected to do the moral and ethical thing at all times, everyone knows the iraqis are bad, so when they do bad things it's expected. during the battle of mogadishu the somalis would have their children sit on the backs of machine gunners who were shooting at our troops. and when we defend ourselves they can proclaim to the world that we were shooting children. the north koreans had their soldiers hide amongst refugees, our troops would let the refugees through a checkpoint then get shot at by the refugees to protect themselves out troops would have to return fire, shooting at men who are hiding behind women and children. It would not suprise me if this were a planned martyrdom operation. the goal being to inflame the muslim world and public opinion against us. there are geneva conventions for a reason, for some silly reason we are the only country in the world who follows them.