Christianity and capital punishment - so, do they mix?

[mrph]

Warning: Contentious subject matter.

I may be missing something, but I still fail to understand how the two are compatible. Anyone out there care to share an opinion on this?

There's an element of "an eye for an eye" in the death penalty, of course. The belief that people have committed a crime so serious that it needs to be paid for with a life. There's also a belief that some people are simply evil and/or crazy, beyond redemption - they'll never be safe to release.

...but from a Christian perspective, isn't that just a lack of faith and an admission of (human) failure? If you follow a religion that believes in reincarnation, it might seem more reasonable to execute some criminals. They've screwed up this life - better luck next time. From some atheist perspectives, it might also be justified.

But for Christianity, there's only one life, isn't there? And during that life there should always be scope for salvation if someone truly repents and turns to God. It would seem that deliberately ending an 'evil' person's life removes any possibility of future redemption - which would seem to be wrong, wouldn't it? If the Bible says that faith can redeem a sinner, how can people say that a particular sinner either isn't worthy - or isn't capable - of that redemption?

I'm not trying to make a straw man argument here - I'm well aware that most (all?) of the major Christian churches are against the death penalty (Catholicism's position is that it's only justified when it "is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives", for example).

However, a lot of individuals do support it, it seems - and don't see it as incompatible with their faith. That's the bit I'm struggling with. Opinions?

Comments

[blu-matt.livejournal.com]

I don't think I'm being too facetious by saying "cherry picking" and "creative interpretation".

[mister-jack.livejournal.com]

Read the old testament, specifically Leviticus.

[mrph.livejournal.com]

...and watch out for mixed fabrics and shellfish, right?

That predates the message of salvation through Jesus, though, doesn't it?

[mistdog.livejournal.com]

I've never understood how people could reconcile those things either. Seems like hypocrisy.

Incidentally people leap on "an eye for an eye" as justification very readily, yet mysteriously hardly ever propose legalising selling your daughters into slavery and marrying multiple wives, which are endorsed in the adjacent verses.

[blu-matt.livejournal.com]

If the OT was superceded by J's airy-fairy hippy-love attitude, then they should throw it out. The fact that they fail to do so shows that either:

a) they like the freedom that the OT gives them (or they think gives them) to be repugnant and judgemental pricks; or
b) they simply pick and choose which parts of their scripture (both OT and NT) to adhere to, and which to ignore,

or a combination of the two. Big J supposedly, and conveniently for those that like to think either of the two ways, said that he came to both revoke mosaic law, and to uphold it. How handy.

It should be noted that for most "crimes", the appropriate punishment is the death penalty, especially but not exclusively in the OT.

[mrph.livejournal.com]

There were a real mix of views back when slavery was legal, though - up to the 17th century, it seems that several popes owned slaves and had no problem with non-Christians being sold as slaves.

And then there's that famous Jefferson Davis quote, confirming his belief that slavery "was established by decree of Almighty God", sanctioned by the bible and generally good for society...

[mister-jack.livejournal.com]

¹⁷Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. ¹⁸For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 5: 17-18

[redcountess]

A christian could always give the argument that their redemption is through death, much like humanity's redemption through Jesus's death. However, the death penalty debate will always be emotive - I've always been against it myself, but I read this today and wished that the last man hanged in Australia had been him, and not Ryan two years previously for allegedly killing a prison guard while trying to escape when he found out his wife was divorcing him.

[ghoti.livejournal.com]

As a Christian, I thoroughly agree with you; it's never made sense to me.

Another thing that fails to make sense to me (as a pro-life person) is how people can use the 'pro-life' label and support capital punishment.

It just doesn't make sense.

Of course, we're all human and all make mistakes - maybe this is one of theirs.

[blu-matt.livejournal.com]

Are the laws of the Old Testament still binding?

[blu-matt.livejournal.com]

Is Salvation by faith alone?

[mrph.livejournal.com]

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"

Eastern religions have it easy. Say twenty contradictory and/or nonsensical things before breakfast, then call 'em koans and explain that they provoke enlightened thinking. Nobody challenges that. :)

More serious reply later.

[blu-matt.livejournal.com]

Of course, the "pro-life" that those people generally ascribe to is no such thing, but merely a politically and emotionally charged euphemism for enforced maternity.

[mister-jack.livejournal.com]

Well, yes, Jesus and Paul had rather different notions. That's the bible for you; a big pile of contradictory statements. But don't worry, it's the literal truth!

[zotz]

Regardless of which, Christians have not (since it became an identifiably separate religion) regarded themselves as being bound by Leviticus. Find me a Christian who lives by all the Jewish dietary law and I'll show you a very unusual case indeed.

[feanelwa.livejournal.com]

That must make baggage claim very easy.

sorry

[wildeabandon.livejournal.com]

WSS. Pretty much word for word.

[livingarmchair.livejournal.com]

Hence the invention of "Document Q" - a theoretical text that exists to tie up the contradictions.

LOL.

[mister-jack.livejournal.com]

Really? I thought Q was the theorised missing source from which two of the Gospels were written (I forget which two)?

[livingarmchair.livejournal.com]

Matthew and Luke. M + L are based on Mark, but feature material that isn't in Mark (But is in both M + L). It's been ages since I looked into it, but I remember reading that some of the stuff that M + L agree on, isn't agreed by Mark - hence the invention of Q to tidy this all up.

[hex61.livejournal.com]

*shrugs*

I was under the impression that just before execution a person of appropriate religious stature is on hand to receive a final confession and provide redemption.

Beyond that, render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and unto God what is God's... is kind of open to interpreting as send back the wicked.

[graylion.livejournal.com]

In the most simple interpretation I would go with "thou shalt not kill" the fact that the other did it first does not change that statement.

[graylion.livejournal.com]

yep, said "pro-lifers" also have no problems sending those children whose lives they have protected off to war ...

[juudes.livejournal.com]

Do you remember the furore over Jerry Springer the Opera - at the time you linked to the website of the lot who organised it (can't remember their name). They explicitly stated their beliefs, which included a belief in the correctness of capital punishment, along with being anti-abortion and anti people committing suicide, I think from the point of view that one's life belongs to god and is therefore sacred, except when 'the law' (who appear to be thought of as god's representatives on earth) deem it necessary to take a life. Also, there is a difference between killing, and committing murder (which is the wording of the sixth commandment) which allows killing in wartime etc. Personally I think it's just a case of making stuff up to justify whatever you want to believe in: two people both calling themselves christians can believe in completely different things!

[giolla.livejournal.com]

Despite agreeing with much of what's been said here a couple of points.

From an orthodox christian point of view, and from the theology I studied the two really can't be reconciled. However these days "christian" is an incredibly broad label, almost rivaling pagan for it's level of meaninglessness.

I suspect generally though the contradiction is handled by not thinking about it too much.

[celemon.livejournal.com]

Actually, that is rather standard procedure for how mss research is done; if it is clear that there are previous sources which must be underlying the existing one (ms X and Y are based on ms Z, but also share features that ms Z doesn't have). This is in no way unique to Bible studies.

[jorune.livejournal.com]

I do not agree with Capital Punishment.

[celemon.livejournal.com]

Speaking as a Christian, I find capital punishment incompatible with Christianity. It rejects the possibility of redemption, and also essentially saying that God cannot make this person change. Moreover, I think it brutalises society, and I feel rather strongly that this is not the direction in which Christians should approve society heading.
As for accepting the government's decisions and rendering unto Caesar, we should remember that this is written in an environment where the governmentis not only non-Christian but often actively hostile. It says nothing of what a government partly made up of Christians, or a democracy where some voters are Christian, should be doing.

[malal.livejournal.com]

there is a difference between killing, and committing murder

There is??? o0

[mrph.livejournal.com]

It rejects the possibility of redemption, and also essentially saying that God cannot make this person change.

...that's my main point, I think, although I was struggling to express it quite that clearly.

The other aspects are also important, but it seems this is the one that's most directly (if not uniquely) linked to Christian faith.

[mrph.livejournal.com]

Yep. There are a few posts on that topic back in the depths of this journal...

All murders are killings, but not all killings are murder. Murder's a legal term describing a specific crime. The death penalty isn't murder in those terms, because it's sanctioned by the proper authorities.

Some bible translations use "kill" in the commandments, others use "murder". It's an important distinction...